The Problem With Shark Nets (Spoiler: They Don’t Work) Part One

Welcome to Part One of this special episode of PROTECT. Today I’ve brought back two wonderful guests who work in marine conservation, Lawrence Chlebeck and Dr. Leonardo Guida. We spoke late last year on shark protection and biology and I’ve invited them back to update us on their campaigns, but also address a concerning summer ahead where shark nets are back in Queensland and New South Wales waters entangling and unnecessarily killing much more than sharks.

So the evidence that nets do not work is quite solid. They do not deter sharks, they do not protect people and they are a really outdated system and a misguided attempt to promote human safety features. Now unfortunately, these are the facts and to get a visual and hear an incredible lineup of marine experts in this space. I would highly encourage you to watch Envoy – Shark Cull a documentary currently streaming on Stan that both Lawrence and Leo feature in which covers this issue in detail. So today, Lawrence who is a Senior Shark Campaigner at Humane Society International, will detail exactly what a net, a drumline and a smart drumline is. We delve into the poor performance of these culling and control programmes, how critical sharks and other marine life are to our oceans, and how as Australians, our oceans are a source to all of us. I hope this episode clears up some of your questions, and you find it valuable.

Angela: Lawrence, thank you for joining me on PROTECT again. It’s lovely to have you back.

Lawrence: Thank you so much for having me Angela. I’m very happy to be here.

Angela: Oh, likewise. Now, last time you were on the podcast, we spoke in depth about shark protection. So I’d love an update. What have you been working on? And do you have any good news for us?

Lawrence: Yeah, so still working on the same sort of stuff. These are long, ongoing campaigns, the kinds of things we spoke about were the shark meshing program in New South Wales and the shark control program in Queensland. And, you know, as we discussed before, these programs have been around since the 60’s in Queensland and the 30’s in New South Wales. So it’s going to be a long effort. It’s a long road to change those kinds of really cemented in ideas and perceptions of these animals and what these programs actually do. So I’m under no illusions that this is going to be a long and ongoing process. But I am happy to say that we are making progress in certain areas.

These last few months, I think the biggest progress we saw was in New South Wales, where we’ve got local councils to formally request removal of the shark nets from their council areas. So there’s eight local councils in New South Wales, between Newcastle and Wollongong that have shark nets, on their beaches within their jurisdictions. And to this date, speaking in October, we’ve got seven of those councils to formally request removal of shark nets to the Department of Primary Industries.

Angela: That’s fantastic.

Lawrence: Yeah, yeah. It’s really, really great when it really shrank our campaign down from this large national focus to, “Let’s talk to the communities, let’s educate the communities,” and help them see that this is not the best way to protect people or marine wildlife in their area. It’s a win win solution to move on and update these programs to make them better for public safety and to make them better for the environment. And it’s something that these councils were really ready to hear and were excited about. Of course, that’s not the end.

The program is managed by the Department of Primary Industries under the auspices of the minister’s office for the environment in New South Wales that’s out of Marshall. It’s his decision of what to do with this program. But getting the council’s on our side is such a huge step and the closest we’ve ever been to making real systemic change in this area, so we’re really, really excited about that progress.

Angela: Oh, that is brilliant news. Everybody’s starting to stand up.

Lawrence: Yeah, that’s right. No one wants to be the council that has dead turtles and dolphins off their beaches. So it’s good that people are understanding what these programs really are and what they do.

Angela: Yes well, speaking of understanding programs, congratulations on your contribution to Envoy – Shark Cull, which documents the effectiveness of these systems. I saw it last week. It was a very compelling film, and I recently spoke to the director Andre Borrell, as you know, and told him that as an animal lover some of the footage was really distressing to watch, but also necessary to see. Sometimes when you see something through film, it’s just stronger than a media or news article. So I’d love to know what the response has been like.

Lawrence: Yeah, it’s been really great. And to speak to your point. I mean, you’re absolutely right. We can say 300 animals died in the shark meshing program last season. But that number 300 doesn’t really have the same impact in someone’s head as seeing it and seeing a film about it. And seeing that kind of footage really hammers home, what’s going on out there. But to speak to your question. Yeah, it’s been really great. I mean, it’s finally bringing this issue to a wider audience. Now, the reason I think that these programs have been able to operate unchallenged for so long is because it’s completely been out of the public view. Unless you had a purpose to be out at the shark net, or the drum lines and actually see it happening, this is completely hidden. So it will take pieces like this, this incredible documentary to bring it to the public’s attention. And I think it’s doing an incredible job of doing that.

Angela: Yep, absolutely. Okay, so I did ask you here today to discuss the recent entanglements. But before we do, can we just go through these measures? Could you please explain to the listeners exactly what nets are, drumlines and smart drumlines are and if any, at all, are actually keeping people safe in the water?

Lawrence: Yeah. All right. Well, let’s start with the worst first. So the shark nets. So shark nets are operated in New South Wales on 51 beaches between Newcastle and Wollongong. And there’s also about 30 to 40 shark nets in southeast Queensland around Gold coast, Brisbane Sunshine Coast and those kind of areas. And in each state, they’re essentially the same technology 100 metre to 150 metre long gill net meant for industrial fishing. So they do not stretch headlamp to headlamp they’re not a barrier to the open sea. They are designed to catch and kill sharks. They don’t quite reach up to the surface, they have to be set in deep water and off the surface so that boats aren’t entangled in them. And this means that sharks easily move around and across them, obviously not through them because they’re designed to catch these sharks and other animals. But I’m just saying that to let the listeners know that it is certainly not a barrier.

It’s not doing anything to reduce the risk of shark bite. And sharks move on the these nets quite easily, quite frequently, almost all the time. 40% of sharks are caught on the inside or the beach side of the nets. So the sharks have already been to the shore and are heading back out after not bothering anyone at all. So they’re massively effective at killing marine wildlife. Then you ask yourself, are they effective at reducing the risk of shark bite? And no, they’re also not effective at that. In New South Wales alone, there’s been 34 shark interactions at netted beaches. There’s no statistical difference in the rate of shark human interactions that have netted beach versus a beach without a net. So they really only exist for a false sense of security. And I do say that they are the worst. They are worse than drumlines because they will take any animal swimming through whales, dolphins, turtles, rays all kinds of sharks, fish, even diving birds. So these nets are our real scourge on Australia’s east coast.

Angela: And they are specifically targeted for sharks?

Lawrence: That’s right. So they are specific for sharks. You can do that with nets and fishing gear by selecting a specific gauge, which is the word they use the space between the nylon filaments.

Angela: Right. And if other marine animals are entangled in the nets, they’re a food source. So they’re attracting sharks to our beaches.

Lawrence: Yeah, that’s right. So if you want to exclude sharks from an area, you shouldn’t be killing random animals and then leaving them to decay in the net, right off a popular swimming beach. And that’s just an easy feed for a shark. And filming the documentary and different footage that we’ve gotten from the shark nets. We found many times large fish or rays with huge shark bites taken out of them, and there’s no other shark caught in the net anywhere else that day. So these sharks are now being conditioned to expect an easy feed at the nets.

Angela: Okay, so nothing good at all. It’s so frustrating.

Lawrence: It’s very frustrating.

Angela: Okay, what is the drum line and smart drum line?

Lawrence: A drum line is a buoy that’s anchored to the sea floor, got a chain and hook coming off it and the hook is baited. Essentially passive fishing devices and sharks will take the bait. Queensland has these drum lines, no technology involved with them whatsoever. They’re just traditional catch and kill drum lines. If one of 19 species of target shark is caught in these drum lines in Queensland that shark is as Queensland would put it euthanised but it’s shot and killed on the drumline.

A slight improvement to that is what we call the smart drum line. A smart drum line is used in New South Wales quite extensively, thanks to a recent announcement from the government and actually used in a trial capacity up in the Keppel Islands in Queensland. So Queensland is just trying these, they call them catch alert drum lines. So they’re exactly like the traditional drumline, but they’re meant to be non lethal. So they have a GPS transceiver. When an animal is caught – any kind of animal – dolphin, turtle, shark, a message is sent to a satellite, that message is sent to a contractor. So the contractor can race out to that drumline and hopefully release that animal on site as soon as possible. If it’s a target species, which in Queensland and New South Wales are Tiger white, or Bull sharks, if it’s a large target animal, that animal is tagged, and relocated, so we can track the movements of that animal. It’s taken far away, we can learn a little bit more about these sharks movement patterns, which is obviously going to help public safety and things like that.

Now, the reason that smart drum lines are better than those traditional drum lines is, like I said, they’re meant to be non lethal. So they have a very low post release mortality. What that means is very few animals die on the smart drumline. Of course, concern still remain, it’s still a pretty intrusive, can be destructive, it can kill wildlife, but it is a vast improvement from either the nets or the traditional drum lines.

Angela: So when you say they get out there as soon as possible, how long is that?

Lawrence: So it’s usually about a half hour to an hour.

Angela: Okay. Is that enough? Is that quick enough?

Lawrence: It’s enough for large sharks. Robust species, that of Tigers, Whites, Bull sharks, they’ll be fine on the drumline for hours, no problem. Our concerns are more for the smaller species hammerhead sharks, they don’t last very long, maybe not half hour to an hour even. So that’s what I mean, when I’m saying that concerns definitely remain. We see smart drum lines and catch alert drumlines, as in Queensland, as a potential stepping stone. It’s not an ideal solution. But it’s been very hard for these governments to take everything out of the water and provide an ignorant public with no quote unquote, safety net in their mind. So the way that we’re working with government is kind of in a stepwise process. The way that I like to put it is, is all the traditional drum lines and nets replaced with smart drum lines tomorrow. I would wait a couple of weeks and then start campaigning against the smart drumlines.

Angela: I was going to say it is a step closer, but not exactly what we’re after.

Lawrence: No, no, you’re absolutely right. Angela you’re right.

Angela: Yeah and just that false sense of security. After watching the documentary and really listening to all of you that you know, the researchers, the scientists, the divers, the fact that nothing was effective for humans really shocked me.

Lawrence: Yeah, this is pretty shocking.

Angela: Okay I guess one good piece of news is that the mainstream media have begun covering entanglements, not because a shark was caught, but a whale, but still, we thank them for the coverage. So migrating whales for that fact. And most recently a calf. Is that right? And what is your forecast? Do you feel that they can survive after what they went through?

Lawrence: That’s a difficult question, isnt it? So most of these whale entanglements occur in Queensland. New South Wales thankfully at least removes shark nets from the water during whale migration season. So whale entanglements while I do still encourage New South Wales, they’re much more rare. But in Queensland, they have no such regulations. They keep the nets in all year round, including during a pretty significant movement of 25,000 humpback whales from breeding grounds of the tropics, down to Antarctica over the winter period.

So the recent whales that were caught, I think there was three entanglements in the last couple of weeks. And like you said, yep, one was a calf. And one thing we’ve been asking the Queensland Department of Agriculture and Fisheries to do for the last few years is to track those animals. At the very least, when you free an entangled animal take a biopsy, it’s not going to impact a whale.

Researchers have been asking for this for years, because we’ll be able to look at how stressed that animal was. You look at enzymes in the tissue, that would be a great first step, because you’re right, we don’t we don’t know if these animals are surviving, you got to think about these humpback whales coming back down from breeding. They haven’t eaten in six months. They’re on a 1000 of kilometres journey and the last thing they need is to be encumbered and exhausted by entanglement in these nets, even when even when they’re freed. Thankfully, to those teams that go out there and do that dangerous work, even when they’re free, there’s no guarantee that they’ll survive the rest of that long migration. Like I said, it’s an incredibly exhaustive and energetically expensive experience for these animals. So it’s really tough to say if they’re surviving.

Angela: Yeah, it was very stressful to watch.

Lawrence: Yeah absolutely. And it kind of goes back to what I was saying about the smart drumlines, which we’ve got to take stepwise progress where we can so one area that we’re really focusing on in Queensland right now is take the nets out during whale migration season, at the very least. We feel like that’s one achievable outcome that we can get pretty soon.

Angela: Okay, well, that’s encouraging. Hopefully there will be no net season soon. So we’ll keep tracking. So you mentioned earlier, it is a long fight. And it always will be. But the technology is available. There are non-lethal modern risk mitigators available, and there’s still a delay with the policymakers. So you mentioned earlier, it is an educational thing with the public because so many people don’t know what’s happening under the water. And it bothers me that a lot of the people making these decisions don’t have marine experience.

Lawrence: Yeah that’s right. It’s a multifaceted answer isn’t it? As everything usually is. But you’re absolutely right. Education is definitely part of it. Especially, you know, being raised in this Australian society where you’re taught from a very young age that these government programs, the nets and the drum lines are out there to protect you. If you want to feel safe in the water, then you need these things out there. And the government is doing its very best to keep you safe. It’s hard to break away from that.

So it is about education. It’s about what people grew up with, what people’s expectations about what the government has been telling us about the effectiveness of these programmes. So there’s a lot of that ingrained societal perception that needs to be broken down. And that’s where it’s great that we have communication pieces, like this incredible documentary coming out now where it is changing hearts and minds, and people are realising that these programs aren’t doing what they’re advertised to be doing. There’s other things at play.

There’s the pure trauma of when a shark attack does occur and the amount of media that is drummed up around that and there’s, you know, a societal fear of the unknown and being in the water and what could be underneath us. And so that’s a deep-seated evolutionary fear. So there’s all these different things at play. But you’re right, educating people. I mean, that’s the solution to most of the world’s problems. Right. And I do believe it’s the solution for this one as well.

Angela: Yes, you’re absolutely right. It is always the case. But it’s also great to see that awareness building and people wanting to learn and do their own research as well. So I think following a chat, I know the answer to this question. But if you could change one policy tomorrow for sharks, what would that be?

Lawrence: Oh, wow. Yeah, ending disruptive culling programmes, I think an investment in non-lethal technologies that can keep people safe in the water, and help us learn more about these amazing animals and the critical role they play in having a healthy ocean right off our coasts.

I mean, we are so lucky to live where we do and have these marine environments just off our coast, we live in such an incredible place. And to be so pristine compared to most of the rest of the world. We’re incredibly lucky to live here. And if the rest of the world knew what we were doing to our natural resources, if the rest of the world knew what we were doing to our iconic marine wildlife, they would be pretty disappointed at us, and we should be pretty disappointed in ourselves. So yeah, first and foremost, it would be getting rid of these programs. Absolutely.

Angela: Perfect. Thank you. And can you please leave us with something about sharks that might change somebody’s mind who is fearful or worried?

Lawrence: Hmm, I guess there’s a couple of things you could say here. We can talk about, you know, what I’ve touched on a few times now about how vitally important these animals are to our healthy ocean ecosystems.

I mean, the ocean holds a special place in all Australians hearts, it’s a place that we go to recreate, it’s a place we go to relax. Everyone uses the ocean for one or another thing for food for all of this. And it’s so vitally important, and that ocean wouldn’t be able to provide those services to us without a healthy functioning ecosystem. Sharks are one of the most critical cogs in that ecosystem. So if we want to continue to use the oceans, the way we have been, if we want our children and grandchildren to be able to enjoy the oceans, the way that we have throughout our lives, we need to keep healthy shark populations in the water out there, keeping our ocean healthy. I think far away, that’s probably the most important thing for people to understand. And I think the more and more our society understands that the more of an impetus there will be to coexist rather than dominate, which has been our outlook up to this point.

Angela: So all about living in harmony, right?

Lawrence: That’s absolutely right.

Angela: Beautifully said. Thank you, Lawrence. And thank you so much for your time today. You’re always so generous with information for myself and the listeners. Thank you as always, for your tireless work for marine wildlife, and thanks for being here.

Lawrence: Thank you so much, Angela. I really appreciate that and anytime, be happy to be back.

Angela: Thank you for listening and a huge thank you to Lawrence for bringing his expertise to PROTECT again. So it’s lovely to have him. As always, there is so much we can do in person and online. So all the links to supporting #netsoutnow now are in the shownotes. And you can visit sharkchampions.org.au plus envoyfilm.com.au Where there is so much information on this outdated system and how we can take action. I look forward to supporting this cause and hope you will join me. Sharks have never been human predators. They are wild creatures that we need to find a way to coexist with and from what you’ve heard today. It is much easier than we think. Thank you for listening

You can connect with Lawrence on Twitter and learn more and put your support behind sharks through Humane Society International and Shark Champions.

If you haven’t already, watch Envoy-Shark Cull and hear and see the research for yourself.