The Problem With Shark Nets (Spoiler: They Don’t Work) Part Two

Welcome to Part Two of this ocean episode special. I recently invited marine conservationist, Lawrence Chlebeck and Dr. Leonardo Guida back on the podcast to discuss nets and the unnecessary killing and entanglements of sharks and other marine life.

If you haven’t already, you can listen to the first part of this conversation with Lawrence, as we detail exactly what nets, drumlines and the programs actually are, how they work, how they don’t work. But today I’m speaking to Dr. Leonardo Guida, who is a Senior Sharks Campaigner at Australian Marine Conservation Society.

Leo provides us with an update on his work along with exactly what happens when a shark or a whale gets entangled, what they physically experience, and again, just how unnecessary this program actually is, we also delve into some fascinating information on how sharks are key to mitigating climate change. And finally, just how likely it is that you will have an interaction with a shark in the wild. I hope you enjoy the episode.

Angela: Leo, thank you for joining me again on PROTECT.

Leonardo: Thank you, Angela. It’s always a pleasure to be on here. Good to speak to you.

Angela: Yeah, everyone’s happy to have you back. The last time we spoke on shark populations, shark control programs. Can you let me know what you’ve been working on and have you got any good news.

Leonardo: Yeah, no rest for the wicked as they say. And sharks really do need our help. So before I give you the good news, I’ll give you I suppose a little bit of bad news, maybe.

So this year, we found out that 37% of all shark and ray species globally are threatened with extinction. So that’s across the world. And that’s the highest form of vertebrates that are threatened with extinction. So they’re in a really precarious place globally speaking. The bright side is, is that Australia’s in a relatively good position. We’ve still got some problems in our backyard, but we’re in a relatively good position. And we’re actually a bit of a lifeboat for a lot of these threatened species that are threatened with extinction in other waters around the world.

So the onus is really on us to lift our game and show some global leadership to protect these animals and in protecting them also ensuring the health of our oceans that we all literally, our lives depend on.

In better news, on September in Queensland announced fishery reforms for their entire east coast. So this includes the Great Barrier Reef. And as part of those reforms, they’ve reduced the number of sharks that can be caught in a year. So this equates to roughly 100 tonnes, that roughly translates to 20,000 sharks that can be caught and killed, to be sold for meat and so forth. So we’ve managed to save up to 20,000 sharks each year on Queensland’s east coast, including the Great Barrier Reef. So that’s really important just to help boost those some of those threatened populations, and also help boost the health of the reef. The reef itself as most people we know, the reefs are a lot of pressure from climate change. And so by ensuring the ecosystem is as healthy as it can be, it just gives it that little bit of a resilience boost. So really good news. And a lot of that comes down to the support from the broader public too. So big thank you to everyone out there listening.

Angela: Okay, excellent. And the petitions which you told me actually work?

Leonardo: Yes, they do. They do.

Angela: Alright, so let’s talk about Envoy – Shark Cull because that’s just recently launched on Stan. So congratulations on your participation.

Leonardo: Thank you. It was great fun and credit goes to the entire team who produced it and took part in it, it really, it came out quite nicely. It’s caused quite a stir, which is great.

Angela: Yeah, I was going to ask, so what have you heard about it from your network?

Leonardo: Up until Stan it’s largely been through online streaming through cinemas because of COVID. So the cinema distributor had some online streaming for certain regions where you could literally purchase like a digital ticket, so to speak. So a lot of it’s been really, really selected audience, like people who already knew about sharks or already in the know, or had friends who were close to the environment movement, or basically, it was an audience that was well aware of the issue to begin with. But what the amazing thing was, is that that audience is massive. And so like on socials, when we have whale entanglements in Queensland this year, some of them were pretty terrible. Everyone got out on the socials and was like, make sure you watch Envoy, make sure you learn about what’s going on and sign this petition – we can create some change.

We even had a beach protest down at Coolangatta a couple months ago, which went really, really well. So the response to it publicly and across social media has been phenomenal. Also, internationally because it’s streamed a little while back in the US on the Discovery Channel. So the international audience is pretty cool.

But what we really, really, really been hoping for is the Stan announcement. We’ve known for a little while, we’ve been hoping for it because this means that it’ll reach the broader Australian public who perhaps aren’t aware of what a shark net is. Perhaps they’re not even aware of what kind of sharks are in our water. Perhaps people have never even been to the beach or even considered it. And by reaching the broader Australian public, that’s what our decision makers in Queensland and New South Wales, that’s who they’re going to listen to.

So we’re hanging out to get the word out to the broad Austrtalian public. And we think this is just going to take it to the next level. And it’s going to be awesome to see what happens.

Angela: Yep, definitely. Look, I watched it the other night. It’s such a compelling film. And I was speaking to the director, Andre earlier. And I actually said, sometimes seeing it on film is a lot more powerful, because you read about it, you see the stills, and it is heartbreaking if you’re an animal lover, or an ocean lover. But to actually see it, it’s really distressing.

Leonardo: I won’t mention any spoilers, and I’m pretty sure you’ll know the part I’m talking about. There’s definitely a part of that film that goes for maybe a good three, four minutes. There’s no background music to it. It’s just literally the sound the cameras picking up. Yeah. And it kind of feels like the longest three or four minutes of your life just because of what you’re witnessing on the screen and kind of going, how on earth is this allowed to happen? Like, how is this possible? And it’s that particular part of the film where quite a lot of people are literally brought to tears, just because of the sheer like, WTF about what on earth is going on?

Angela: It is true, even to see the nets on film, it just looks so outdated. It looks like such a stupid system. How are we even thinking that this is going to save us or protect us.

Leonardo: For those who aren’t aware these nets, they’re not from the bottom of the ground to the surface of the water, they don’t span an entire beach. They’re literally about 186 metres long, maybe four to six metres high. And that’s it. Sharks swim around them. 40% get caught on the beach side of the net. So that’s as they’re coming back out from the beach going, “Well, I’ve had a look around, I’m going to hit back out now”. And then they get caught. But not just that. The other thing you got to realise is that this is a strategy that’s been put in place that’s over 50 years old. And I love saying this to everyone, because I feel like it really puts into perspective.

If you look at beach safety, where on earth in your life, would you accept those safety standards? 50 years old? Would you accept 50-year-old safety standards at your work? At your hospital? In your home? At your school? And you kind of ask yourself the question. So why is the beach any different? Especially when you’ve got the solutions in play, you’ve got things like drones, you’ve got social media where you can educate the people like you’ve never educated people before and you know, reach a vast audience. You’ve got signage, you can put up a beach, you’ve got shark deterrents as well. And also just through the scientific research, like shark research, I think last they measured the rate shark research basically doubles every 10 years. Well, it takes a while to produce but like every 10 years, we know twice as much more or there abouts.

And so when you factor that in over 50 years, and then you factor in technological advancements, like tags, and looking where sharks go, and how they move and how that relates to the environmental conditions, like we can start to understand.

Okay, what conditions are going to increase the risk of interacting with a shark, whether that means you get bitten, or whether that means you know, you just see one swim by. Like, what’s going to inflate that risk, and then have that information brought out into the public so that everyone’s aware. So like, you know, any school kid will eventually say, Oh, I’m going to go to the beach, and it’s near a river mouth, which a lot of popular beaches are. Yeah, but you know, it’s been storming the past couple of days, I’m not gonna go swimming in the water. Because when there’s storms and high rainfall everywhere else, all shark activity spikes. So be great with that gets to a point where it’s common knowledge.

So in short, we’ve got technology, we’ve got knowledge. We’ve got a raft of methods that we can use to really lift these safety standards to modern day levels. And the great thing is, is that it improves people’s safety the beach, but also doesn’t come at the cost of wildlife.

Angela: Exactly. And one thing you did say on the documentary was that we can’t control animals.

Leonardo: No, you can’t. Even your dog like you can train your dog but at the end of the day, sometimes your dog is not going to listen to you. And it’s more so with wild animals. You can’t control them. Don’t get me wrong, people have a certain level like Madison, who’s in the film, like she’s got an insane amount of experience diving with sharks. But even she’ll tell you like as much as she knows about sharks and can kind of read the situation through experience. At the end of the day, you don’t know what the animal is going to do. You cannot think like that animal is thinking you’d be foolish to do that. And you’ve got to maintain that healthy level of respect for any wild animal that okay, you can understand how it might move, how it might behave. Okay, what are the chances and adjust your behaviour accordingly. But ultimately, you cannot definitively predict what an animal is going to do. Yeah, no matter how well you think you might know.

So yeah, it’s funny that it’s called the shark control program in Queensland. I don’t know what else you would call it to be honest, other than just beach safety program, maybe. But yeah, you definitely can’t control wild animals. So it’s a matter of learning how to coexist with these animals as safely as possible.

Angela: Absolutely. So can you let us know how the nets can actually attract sharks?

Leonardo: Yeah, the nets themselves are just nets. They’re not baited. They just sit there. And for all intensive purposes, like most nets, ideally, they’re invisible. So an animal swims into it. But the shark in particular, they’ll swim into it, and they’ll get caught around the gills. And then as they thrash they’ll get tangled and then eventually die.

Physiologically or physically, what’s happening to that shark is that as it thrashes about, it’s mostly using white muscle. So white muscle, what it does is and we’ve got it as well, it’s what we use for burst power and for sprinting. So it’s anaerobic, it uses glucose, it doesn’t require much oxygen and first power, and yet a lot of strength and power that that can’t last for a long time. And what happens is, is that you deplete the oxygen in your body, you become exhausted. And that’s why, as humans, we use our white muscle we go. And we just want oxygen to recover.

So with a shark, it’s similar to using white muscle thrashing about trying to escape, becoming exhausted in the process, and also can’t get enough oxygen. Because a lot of sharks need to move to breathe. Not all, but a lot of them need to move to breathe. And so, when it’s in the net, it can’t move to breathe. And on top of that thrashing about using all this white muscle on depleting its oxygen levels. It essentially drowns and suffocates out of exhaustion.

With other animals, again, similar process, ultimately, they drown. But through the footage you see in the film, and also some images that have been shown through Envoy’s Instagram, and the freedom of information, photos they’ve received from governments, you also find that there’s dead animals in the nets with massive chunks taken out of them. And it’s not like a small fish has taken a chunk, these are shark bites.

And what you can see is that these animals are sitting the nets. Once they’re dead they release certain odours and chemicals that sharks have evolved to pick up on. Sharks are opportunistic when they eat, if they can get an easy meal, they will. They work smart, not hard.  And so if there’s an opportunity to have a free meal, sure, why not. And so these nets, but the animals get caught in them end up acting as bait, even other sharks. And so you could potentially get bigger sharks can pass going all three feet.

And so instead of these nets, supposedly, you know, keeping sharks away, they’re potentially drawing them otherwise they wouldn’t come past. So it’s a bit of a double whammy in that you’re killing sharks, but also with other animals that are coming through threatened and endangered and protected species. Other sharks are coming in and going, “I’ve got a free feed”. And that shark may not have come there in the first place had that net been there.

Angela: Yep. And that’s happening every day. So recently, there was a lot of attention on the whales, obviously, they’re maybe nicer than sharks. I’m not sure. Not in your opinion. But not everybody wants to come face to face with a shark. So if we don’t have nets in the water, how can we avoid them?

Leonardo: So first and foremost, the likelihood of you actually, seeing a shark or interacting with a shark is pretty rare – to start with. Secondly, if drone footage has shown us anything, with people taking their drones to the beach, and getting amazing photography and amazing images. If that’s showed us anything more often than not, the shark has seen you, and you haven’t seen it. And it has just gone, “I really couldn’t care less, I’m just going to do my thing.”

So as much as when we hear about shark bite, we’re like, “Oh, my God, this is horrible”. And it is. It is terrible and traumatic. At the same time, you never really hear how many times there’s been a shark and nothing’s happened. Nothing’s happened. But when these drones go up, and people take these amazing footages and these amazing things like you know. There’s even footage of like white sharks that are just swimming 20 metres away from a surfer. The surfer has no idea and the white shark is just like…(whistles)… and then just swims off.

So it just goes to show that

1. Interactions are rare.
2. More often than not, they’re probably seen you and you haven’t seen it. Nothing’s happened.
3. Sharks aren’t just the big three. They’re not just Great Whites, Tiger Sharks and Bull Sharks.

Like down in VIC, where I’m originally from and where you are at the moment. In Port Phillip Bay, under piers there are Port Jackson Sharks. They’re gorgeous sharks a little over a metre long and won’t do a thing. So there are sharks there. And Australia has 328 species of sharks and rays, about 180 of them are sharks. So there’s a range of species – they’re there. The big sort of dangerous ones, like I said, probably rare that you’ll find them.

In terms of how to avoid them. There are some environmental conditions that you can look out for. So one is if you see a flock of seagulls just diving in on the one spot on the water in the distance, there’s a good chance there’s a large amount of fish there. And that’s what the seagulls are diving. And where there’s a large amount of fish, there’s going to be another animal that also goes, “Ooh, I can get some food”. And there’s going to be another animal that goes, “I see you wanting to get food, and I’m going to eat you”. And that animal is probably a shark.

So it’s just the way an ecosystem works. When there’s a feed on, there’s a feed on, that’s just a sign of a healthy ocean. So that’s one thing.

Another thing we touched on earlier is rainfall and river mounts. So this is particular sort of as you head through New South Wales, Sydney, into Northern Australia, when there’s a lot of rainfall, around river mouths, bull shark activity spikes. So the water becomes a bit more murky and fish get washed out. And the conditions are just ripe for bull sharks to go hunting. So that’s another thing to look out for.

So if it were me, and it was storming for a week, and I plan on going to a beach near a river, I’d be like, You know what, actually, I’ll suss it out or be cautious, I’ll just be aware of it. And yeah, they’re just two really simple ones.

And then there’s some of the broader ones, dawn and dusk, be aware. But again, the risk is absolutely minimal. It’s just basically, so long as you’re informed and you’re asking, you know, what can I do? Once you get that information? You can say, “Okay, cool. Will I take the risk? Or why not?”

Angela: Exactly. And risk is a risk. I was saying, Andre before whether I’m going into the forest or the ocean, there are predators everywhere.

Leonardo: Yeah, 100 per cent. You’re in Australia, anything will kill you.

Angela: Snakes I don’t want to ever see ever. So why do we need sharks? Why shouldn’t we pick and choose what animal staying go particularly when it comes to marine wildlife?

Leonardo: So we need sharks because the healthy number of sharks means that the ocean is healthy. They’re typically at the top of food webs, which means that keep food webs in check and in balance. And if you remove sharks, there’s a chance that that food webs can become unstable and potentially collapse.

Now, what that means is quite simply, the seafood that you enjoy, for example, you might not be able to enjoy anymore because that food webs become altered, potentially collapse. That’s the real top level simple answer.

The other reason why we need sharks is not just because how they keep the food web in balance but they’re also like when it comes to climate change- they’re a bit of a hero too. In the sense that the study by Shark Bay found that when Tiger sharks come into Shark Bay, dugongs that are hanging around, they’re eating the seagrass will actually sort of stop eating and stay on their toes a bit and keep an eye out and be like, “Oh, I don’t want to get eaten. I’ve got to keep my eyes out for Tiger sharks. I reckon they’re around and I won’t eat as much.” So they won’t eat as much seagrass in any given spot. And what that means is it reduces pressure on the seagrass. So there’s no overgrazing.

The benefit of that is that seagrass draws down carbon and stores it far longer than what terrestrial rainforests do. I think 40 times from memory. It draws down 40 times faster from memory and can store for hundreds of years more. And people may have heard the concept of blue carbon. Similar concept, that seagrass is basically the rainforest of the sea draws down carbon and stores it.

So these Tiger sharks are protecting seagrass, which is helping us deal with climate change. And seagrass is helping keep the coastline intact, it’s preventing erosion. And seagrass is also a really important habitat for juvenile fish and invertebrates to grow up and leave and then when they’re big, they can head out to the ocean.

So by the sheer fact that this Tiger shark is sort of roaming around Shark Bay, and kind of making this dugong stay on its toes, it’s helping us with climate change. It’s preventing coastal erosion, it’s ensuring healthy seagrass habitats and it’s protecting the little guy so that when they grow up, they can head out into the ocean. And this is what a shark does.

But as I said, like Australia’s got over 180 species of sharks, they all perform different roles depending on what environment they’re in. Tiger sharks are more of an apex shark, but you’ve also got Blacktip Reef sharks in the Great Barrier Reef, and they’re kind of like a Mesopredator – so they’re in the middle. And by in the middle, they get eaten by bigger sharks, but they’ll also eat smaller fish. And again, the way they work they keep a reef system healthy and dynamic. They go through a coral reef patch, other fish start hiding or they move to another area because they don’t want to be eaten. And so that kind of makes the ecosystem really dynamic and how other animals interact with each other, and just makes it healthy.

Angela: That’s amazing. I didn’t know that. Thank you. So Leo, if you could change some policies tomorrow, what would they be?

Leonardo: Alright, just to be clear, we’re talking about sharks here, right? Because everyone’s in a bit of a bad spot with COVID and thoughts go out to them. So to change policy well, but we’re talking sharks and policy. That’s a really good question because there are some pretty significant issues. I suppose at the very top, at the very top I would have to give endangered sharks the protection they deserve. And by that I mean that there are endangered species in Australia that are still legally fished and sold for meat and fins. And most people know this meat as flake at the fish and chip shop.

Now flake should only refer to gummy shark, which isn’t an endangered shark. And its numbers are in quite a good spot. But the reality is you’ve got scalloped Hammerheads getting fished out of the Great Barrier Reef, which are endangered, and they’re legally sold as flake. You’ve got endangered School Shark, again sold for meat that’s fished out of Southern Australia. So Victoria, Tasmania. You’ve also got critically endangered Whitefin Swellshark. So these are sharks that live up to 500 metres below the surface. They’re critically endangered, they have no fishing rules in place to protect them. And they can be caught and sold. No worries.

So the problem with that is that our environmental laws are weak. And there are loopholes within those laws that allow the harvest of the Scalloped Hammerhead and the School Shark because they’re two species that actually qualify for endangered listing on the EPBC Act (Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999). So the EPBC Act is our environmental laws. But there’s a special category within that EPBC Act that says conservation dependent. And that basically means that look, even though you’re a fish, and even though you’re endangered, or critically endangered, we’re still going to permit commercial harvest, as opposed to you actually qualify for endangered under this law, we’ll put you as a fully protected species.

So top level, in short, I would say that if a shark is recognised by scientists in Australian waters, as endangered, it should not be caught and sold. Every effort should go towards protecting it and helping us numbers recover.

Angela: Okay, good change, fingers crossed. And it really doesn’t help the consumer that wants to make a good decision on what they’re eating. Or if they go for a swim thinking that they’re protected from the nets, it puts a lot of pressure on them as well, because the wrong information is being fed to us.

Leonardo: When it comes to flake or shark meat labelling is an issue. That’s accepted, like labelling is an issue needs to be resolved. But as much as that needs to be fixed, the root cause is actually stopping the endangered sharks from being caught in the first place. And that’s the work I do. So that’s making sure that our fisheries are operating in such a way that either species have their critical habitats protected, or that if they do accidentally get caught, they’re handled as best as possible and thrown back alive. Or if they get caught and die, we make sure that only a certain amount die throughout a year. And then when the trigger gets reached, you know, we might close a fishery, or we might say, Okay, we’ve got to reduce the number of boats going out by 50%, or whatever.

Bottom line is, you reduce the amount of mortality in an endangered species. So the onus is really on our governments and how our governments make the rules for our fisheries. Because the end of day fishers aren’t necessarily the bad guys. Fishers go out and do a job like everybody else. And they’re following the rules that put before them, that those rules are decided by our governments who receive scientific information and advice. So it really is important that the government’s whether they’re state or whether it’s federal, put the rules in place to ensure that our fisheries are sustainable.

Nonetheless, when it comes down to you, as a consumer AMCs has got the Good Fish App. So if you got to goodfish.org.au, you there’s a range of seafood that we list in a traffic light system, green, yellow, red. Seafood listed as green is like yep, go for it. Seafood listed as yellow is maybe a little bit less of it and red is avoid. And that’s where shark meat falls under.

So when we look at the Good Fish App, and sustainable seafood, we don’t just assess it as the number of a given fish, which is what most people think of sustainability as it’s like, well, there’s plenty of that animal. It’s sustainable, no worries. The reality is, is that sustainability, particularly with fishing, it’s a holistic, it’s an environmental approach.

So when we look at Gummy shark, for example, that’s fished out through Victorian waters, is that when you’re fishing for Gummy shark, you can’t avoid catching School shark, which is endangered. School shark is still legally sold as meat. And School shark at the moment has declined by 90%. There’s a high degree of uncertainty as to whether it’s recovering or not. And so you go well, how can you call Gummy sharks sustainable if it’s coming at the cost of another animal? Like where do you draw the line? Yeah, so we kind of address sustainability like that. So whenever we say something’s green listed, we go yet the number of the fishes is okay, the fishery is managed well and the environmental impacts are addressed. You’re safe to eat this.

Angela: Excellent. And to finish off, leave us with something about sharks that might change people’s mind who are fearful, worried?

Leonardo: Oh this is a good one. So if you’re worried if you’re scared about sharks, okay,

Angela: Yeah, whether you’re going into the ocean whether you don’t go into the ocean because of sharks.

Leonardo: First thing I’d suggest if you can, and if you have the ability to do so, go to an aquarium Nothing replaces seeing an animal in the flesh in terms of beginning to understand your relationship with that animal, and how you interpret that animal, if you’re able to. Again, if you’re able to go diving, go do that.

Basically, any which way you can physically see or interact with the animals safely. That’s probably one of the biggest things that you can do to kind of reduce your fear or at least understand it. And it’s important that everyone knows that fear is normal. Fear is actually a healthy thing. That’s what has kept you alive. It’s a matter of just going, “Okay, I’m scared, I understand my fear. It’s a healthy form of respect, cool. Shark, you do your thing, I’ll do my thing – we’re good. So there’s no need to be fearless. If anything, if you feel that you might actually do something stupid.

The other thing is, again, I work with Australian Marine Conservation Society, you can check our website about sharks, there are multiple resources online, you can start learning about them. And you might go, Well, where do I start? Aside from the more popular ones more popular species, it’s a good idea to remember that there’s over 180 species of sharks in Australia. And 328 species of sharks and rays in Australia. So there’s quite a lot of species that have a cute, my personal favourite, which we touched on is the Whitefin Swellshark. I mean, this is a shark is a little over a metre long, is just 500 metres below the surface. And when it gets pissed off, it actually swallows water to make itself look bigger. So that a potential predator gets scared or that it’s hard to eat.

Angela: Clever.

Leonardo: Yeah. And then you’ve got like other species, like Greeneye Spurdog which live over a kilometre below the surface, and they’ve got these bright green eyes to help them see in the dark. And they’ve got the longest pregnancy in the vertebrate world, like their pregnancies last three years. And they give birth to a handful of pups. And these things are on, you know, again, a little under a metre big.

So there’s all these amazing sharks with all these amazing quirks that you then soon realise that they’re so diverse, there’s so many different ways that they live in different habitats of their lives, they behave different ways. And then it’s no longer so much I’m scared of sharks, it’s more like, I just want to learn more about them and, and understand their role in the environment or in the ocean. So even just talk to people and just see what they think about sharks, you might find that maybe my fears not so extreme, or maybe it’s the same as someone else, and you kind of start dispelling it that way.

Angela: Yeah. Fantastic. Leo, thank you so much for the update. It’s been a pleasure to have you back on the show.

Leonardo: No worries. My pleasure.

Angela: Thank you for listening and a huge thank you to Leo for bringing his expertise to PROTECT again, it’s lovely to have him back. As always, there is so much we can do in person and online. So all the links to supporting #netsoutnow are in the show notes. And you can visit shark champions.org.au plus envoy film.com

Today you were there is so much information on this outdated system, and of course how we can take action. I look forward to supporting this cause and I hope you will join me. Sharks have never been human predators. They are wild creatures that we need to find a way to coexist with and from what you’ve heard today. And with my conversation with Lawrence, it is much easier than we think. Thank you for listening

You can connect with Leo on Twitter and learn more and put your support behind sharks through Australian Marine Conservation Society and Shark Champions.

If you haven’t already, watch Envoy-Shark Cull and hear and see the research for yourself.