The sharing economy is in full swing but you may not know just how good it is for the environment and for our physical and mental health.
There is so much opportunity in getting the design right in our public parks, our community squares and gardens and our streets. And we’re now moving from a place of accessibility to inclusivity ensuring everyone from a toddler to an elderly person can find enjoyment and comfort in these spaces.
Today, to help me explore this thoughtful topic is Tobias Volbert, who is a landscape architect and co-founder and spokesperson of the 7 Senses Foundation.
Tobias details the 7 Senses and why sensory design is crucial to our spaces. We look at the benefits of engaging with our community and mother nature and how we can all be a part of the design process from our backyard to our neighbourhood skatepark.
I hope you enjoy the episode.
Angela: Welcome to Episode 8 of PROTECT. Today we’re talking about the shared economy in particular urban outdoor areas and the importance of designing them to be engaging, useful and inclusive for all abilities. Many of us live in small homes including myself and we rely on our public parks, gardens and our general neighbourhood to get our vitamin D and explore mother nature.
To help me with this topic I’m speaking to the passionate Tobias Volbert who is a landscape architect, play consultant at urban play and also the founder and spokesperson of 7 Senses, a foundation that specialises in sensory focused design. Educated in Germany, Tobias moved to Australia in 2006 where he worked as a manager for sustainable buildings in Brisbane before beginning his current passion for sensory landscape and playgrounds.
Prior to this he was involved in change management, community consultation and landscape projects in Germany, New Zealand and Australia. I’m delighted to bring Tobias’ expertise and inspiring ideas to the podcast today. I hope you enjoy the episode.
Thank you so much for joining me on the PROTECT Podcast today.
Tobias: Thanks for having me Angela, really excited.
Angela: So am I and congratulations on 7 years of 7 senses.
Tobias: Thank you so much.
Angela: Oh you’re very welcome. It’s such an achievement. Now I want to introduce the listeners to 7 senses. So most of us know we have 5 senses, so I’ll need you to elaborate on the special 2 and also discuss what your foundation does.
Tobias: Awesome, thanks very much. So the 7 Senses Foundation was really founded to raise awareness about inclusion that goes beyond accessibility. So when we talk about inclusion a lot of times it’s about wheelchair accessibility, wider pathways, how we can get ramps so people can access certain areas in our built environment.
So my wife is an occupational therapist and in the OT world everyone always talks about 7 Senses. So people are like, “Oh, wow, what are these 2 senses”. So we use that as a thought provocation to get people to think beyond just accessibility. So how can we help people with sensory processing disorder, with mental health to be able to access our public spaces as well.
So the 2 senses, a lot of people are not aware of is vestibular – in your inner ear. It’s about balance, so for example kids on the spectrum – not fully developed they can go on a playground on the spinner, they can spin for an hour without getting dizzy and it really calms them down.
The second sense is proprioception – the sense of how your joints and muscles are connected and that can be for example – you know you are sitting on a chair right now. So in special schools a lot of kids are challenged and we use heavy blankets – it gives them this hugging, this proprioceptive stimulation that is, “Oh, I know where I am now in this space,” and suddenly they can communicate with others. How can we do that in the built environment – to have hugging corners, to have proprioceptive seating where you feel like you are being hugged or having this input on your body to feel actually safe in a space.
So the 7 Senses Foundation is really about creating healthier and happier communities and to go inclusive beyond accessibility so that the spaces that we design are truly inclusive and truly accessible for everybody in the community.
Angela: Great explanation – thank you. So what type of projects are you working on at the moment?
Tobias: So we did over the seven years, heaps of activations so we did the street day. So we started that in 2013 where we for one we wanted to show that streets were more than just thoroughfares for cars but also that we have to create human corridors where everybody can engage and connect. So we did over the last seven years hundreds of those all over Australia so we have like a 7 Senses Kit, so really from A to Z, what you need to do when you want to actually talk to your community to arrange something like that.
So for the first Saturday in November we have people actually turn their street into a 7 Senses Activation. You have to go to council for permission to actually do it and then to raise awareness about that. The other thing we are doing is writing new guidelines with QUT on intergenerational parks.
So in Australia we’re really good at creating multigenerational areas I guess but everything is always in silos. So, “here is a little toddler space, here’s a space for elderly people, here’s a space for teenagers,” but nothing is really integrated and that’s the thing with the 7 Senses that’s so powerful as well. That’s where we engage all of us. It doesn’t matter which culture you come from, which background you have, which age group you are, we all experience our built environment through our senses so if we bring that together, young and old can be in the same space without being awkward and they can actually engage in conversation and also animals and also biophilia and also all these things come together in the 7 Senses approach.
So doing a lot of research, we do a lot of parks. My professional work as a landscape architect, I work for Urban Play, we build playgrounds. So we make sure with all our playgrounds they are 7 Senses engaged. That they really have the layers of excellence, they’re proof to that. We’re also doing a lot of work on town centres. We did some research with the University of Sunshine Coast where we used a work domain analysis – it’s like a 7 Senses auditing system. It actually looks at the community, how it is right now and then we did a 7 Senses day and then audited engagement during that day. Obviously it increased so we actually had a framework of what are the key things to ensure – we have to take to make sure we get a healthy, inclusive community overall.
So a lot of different projects we’re working on. We’re also working with QT on an app – the 7 Senses app for school. How do we bring kids and schools to engage more with – not just the built environment but with nature. So it’s using the technology not as an enemy, “Oh, we can’t just play that now”. Fortunately we have technology now, the kids are using it, how can we use the technology to help the kids explore the natural landscape more.
So we’ve done the 7 Senses app so the kids can actually scan an environment and they can let’s say, pick an animal like, “I’m a dingo”. So how would a dingo engage. So they learn about the dingo, they learn about the habitat of a dingo and they actually explore their own school yards with different eyes of a different animal. So pretty funky stuff there as well.
Angela: Very clever and a cool way to learn combining digital and mother nature. So, let’s talk about design. What are the design features that make a space inclusive for all abilities?
Tobias: Well I think it’s all about the zoning. It’s about creating the right choices and that’s the thing – one thing suits one person but not the others so you have to have different opportunities within a space. So for me it’s always – I use permaculture principles from zoning. So let’s say in a park setting where you have your facilities of seating and your barbecues – the first thing when you come into a park should be all about prospect refuge. So from sensory and to avoid being completely overwhelmed I can go into a space and say, “Oh, I feel safe here,” and then from this I can actually meander out and there might be a zone which is a little bit more visually stimulating and then I can come back to my prospect refuge.
Then I can go into the area where it’s all about proprioception and vestibular where the hype is happening and I can actually spin and climb and be really active and then I come into a different zone where I can just be on a mindfulness walk, reflexology etc. It’s all about creating these nooks and that’s what I’ve found in a lot of cities is so bad that we go to a lot of these public plazas and you go there and there is one beautiful, million-dollar surface like a mosaic. So you come here and all these people it’s like ants running around. So if I have these anxiety issues I would never be able to meander through this totally overwhelming environment to come to the other side. So how do we break that down? I think that’s the key thing with all our design approaches. And another thing as well – a lot of times with new developments and things like that – let’s talk about a playground – it’s all about the wow things and people want the wow things which is important but they put them at the front gate. So again if I have anxiety issues and there’s this big element where kids just scream and run around I’ll never go into this space. So in the first instance, the first zone to be this prospect refuge, “Oh I feel safe, not too many colours and I can find different things”. And really making sure we tick all of these 7 Senses for one – so we have way finding through smell. Beautiful. Just follow the smell of lavender when you meander through a space, then tactile features. As I said, mindfulness walks and reflexology. So it’s really important for young kids but also elderly people. So why not have a history, mindfulness walks through our parks that actually meanders as a secondary pathway through our parks and actually goes through play spaces.
So if I’m an elderly person, I don’t have any grandkids, I can go into a playspace and actually connect with younger kids without getting a call from council that there’s a pervert – so how do we break these barriers to bring our society and trust of communities back to connect together.
Angela: So it’s quite thoughtful the design you’re working on?
Tobias: Absolutely. That’s why I’m really passionate about working with universities as well. It’s evidence-based. Some things are common-sense – that’s probably another sense there but it is really common sense but we’ve lost that a little bit. So how do we bring the thoughtfulness back in our designs. So what I do in our designs here is we actually have a coffee and then we go through all that – did we actually achieve all the 7 Senses in that space. Then we have a look at the prospect refuge theory, is that achieved. Do we have the sense of place theory attached to it – is there a story about this space that’s really unique to the space that we are designing. I think it’s really important as well otherwise it’s like a splash thing, “Oh I’ve seen that 200 times,” and that’s what we do as well. We know because we put it there.
The other one is the affordances theory. So how do we make sure everything we put in place has multiple affordances to an overall goal of creating this inclusive, intergenerational space. So a bench can be more than just a bench that you sit on. A bench could be a visual element. A bench could have some cushions on it so it becomes this hugging thing. A bench could have little things on it which allow and give you permission that you can balance on it, you can jump over it, you can climb over it, you can use it for fitness. So why does a bench have to be just a bench. So it’s explaining it on the design but also explaining it to the end-users as well and giving them permission. “It’s okay for your child to run over and have dirty feet”. I think we’re so conditioned that this is how you’re allowed to use it and don’t do anything else with that. Same with schools, all our gardening edges for schools but we don’t allow for balancing. We don’t allow our kids to use them. We just play in this space here or on the path where you walk from a to b because it’s unsafe. So how do we break these barriers I guess. That’s what we try with the 7 Senses and give reasons why it’s so important because then we always have these arguments, “Oh but that’s unsafe”. No, it’s not unsafe. The risk benefits are actually bigger than the risks itself.
So there’s a lot of research on spinning for example. Here the Department of Education in Queensland says we can’t have swings or spinners in a playground in a school because kids could actually hurt each other. This is the most important element for vestibular and propeciation actually and we’re excluding them for risk but the benefits are so much higher so I think we need to dig a little bit deeper.
Angela: Some wonderful ideas and thank you for highlighting that design opportunity. So if you have somebody who lives in a neighbourhood with a concrete skate park and they’d like to see zoning or something more – who can they turn to?
Tobias: With a concrete skate park at the moment – so they would normally go to council and do a petition and say yes we want to do something there. So it should be bottom up, from the community to some engagement processes. So again, we can help with 7 Senses ideas as well. We can do a 7 Senses audit and I have to say, I love skate parks. My kids are now 8 and 10, I spend every weekend around 10 hours at the skatepark but there is nothing for me to do. That’s the sad thing as well. At first I thought, oh my kids are there all the time so I bought myself a skateboard. I fell off straight away – I just can’t do it, too old. So how nice would it be to actually have fitness equipment close to the skatepark so I could be on the cardio stepper or on the bike in the background, I can actually do a sensory walk along a pathway so I can stay there longer, my kids can stay there longer, we both get healthy and not me sitting there reading a book or being on my iPad and once I’ve read all my messages say, “Okay guys, let’s go home, I’m over this”. So how do we really get the whole community engaged?
So I think the first point of call is to really do an analysis and get some input from the community of what could be done and then reach out to some experts. So say, “Hey, here’s an overlay and these are the research and facts behind it,” and if we do that we’re actually – it’s a cost benefit as well. So the only engagement we get at this park is a concrete skate park but more engagement would be great for the local businesses around it. It would be great for the community, it would be great for mental health. It would be great to build trust within our communities as well.
I think that’s my biggest finding in seven years of the 7 Senses street activations is that to just do this one day a year where the street comes together and then they’re all behind their fences again so it doesn’t really change the mindset so people are like, “Well done Toby, that’s great,” but it didn’t really change anything. So a new thing I developed is called, “Tales of the Hood”. It’s a bit like a park run, it’s now endorsed by councils across Australia.
So the idea is that one Saturday a month, I go through my neighbourhood and one Saturday my nine year old is the leader of the walk so he talks a sensory walk and he talks about what he sees in the neighbourhood. What he sees, what he’s found, what animals he listened to and what smells he discovered and we record that. A month later there’s Joey who is 90 years old and he tells the story, “Oh when I was young all of these houses weren’t here it was all cattle yards”. So through this storytelling discussion and being physically active by going for a walk. On that Saturday, we are active and engaged so we connect young and old and they know each other. So I feel so much more comfortable to let my kids just go on a Saturday for two hours because all the neighbours know them. I think it’s really building this capacity of a neighbourhood, to bring the people together, to build this trust and then I think there’s so many of my neighbours here that are still scared to get their kids out but I think the more we know each other, and get to know each other and the slower the traffic will be because no one wants to kill their kid of their mate down the road – so all these things.
Angela: Definitely something to think about and I love the idea of the neighbourhood-led sensory walk. Just what we need as lockdown lifestyles are feeling unfortunately normal around the world . Now I’d like to talk about nature in design – how are we utilising it in public spaces? Is that starting to come into play now?
Tobias: Absolutely. I’m also on the board of Nature Play Queensland. And there’s a lot of discussions about that. I think in public spaces people are still very scared about utilising them. It’s like edible gardens, they don’t want to have it in a public space because for example if a dog pees on a strawberry and somebody eats it you then get sued as a council which is crazy. So again, it’s all these risks that prevent us from doing it. But I think we really have to enhance and work with our nature so much more here. We live in this amazing outdoor country, and we still develop everything around the aircon and living in our indoor spaces. The whole thing with our street designs is just terrible. You know, we don’t have natural shading, we don’t have proper human corridors which I can go through with my child and have proper destinations along the way. And there is so much research around the world that we need natural shade – we have this urban heat island and there is this heat when you go onto the streets and never walk because it’s just too hot so the canopy brings more wildlife in, slowing down the water flow as well keeping that moisture on side so then again habitats create biodiversity. So all these things are not rocket science but we still have a very engineered driven mindset but not really looking about who are the users, the humans and how we meander through those spaces.
So the more natural elements we get into our spaces is important because from a sensory perspective whether it be visual, tactile but also with smell and taste. The more nature we get into our built environment the more beneficial it will be. And the same research shows the more green and blue spaces we see is so much better for our mental health as well so for example school designs kids should always have access to see outside the green and the blue skies. The same with what we’re doing with hospitals. But this shouldn’t just be for people who are sick to get better, it should be for everyone.
And how we design our houses. So all that stuff is just crazy. I call these houses that we are building in Australia are all on life-support. We are designing things (boxes) that only work when we mechanically turn them on. So you go inside you have to turn the light on because the ceilings are so low, there are these really dark channels. You then have to put the aircon on in summer and in winter because it’s too cold and we live in the best climate ever and my house is a sustainable house. I don’t have an aircon, I don’t have heating. It just works passively. And it’s not rocket science. And I think this needs to be mainstream and I think it would change how we engage with our built environment and how we engage with society as well.
Angela: That’s a whole other podcast.
Tobias: I know.
Angela: Alright, so we’ve talked about 7 Senses but I want to talk about the shared economy. So, I feel like we are moving towards a stronger shared economy with transport and housing but I want to know why is it so important that our outdoor spaces are also shared. So having these communal spaces instead of us all having big houses and big backyards.
Tobias: Well I think that’s exactly the point, in what you’re saying. Our housing blocks are becoming so much smaller so people don’t have open space anymore and the mindset has changed that a lot of people don’t want the maintenance because of our busy lifestyles as well. I don’t want to spend my Saturdays mowing the lawn so there’s so much more pressure on the shared spaces to be more inclusive for all and to provide I guess this haven that you need to come out of this built form you’re living in. So 40% of this built form of structures is streets – what a waste. So that’s the thing, I think we need to have parks, we need to have open space but we really have to focus and I think this is something that can be done straight away. Fully driven by every single Australian. We can all turn our front yards into this beautiful nature-inspired thing so we don’t need council. We can’t always say, well why is the council not doing this or council not doing that. There is no regulation that says I can’t put a big tree in my front garden and maybe a little bench there and my community library to engage with people. All of us can do that tomorrow over the weekend. But then the public spaces that we do need to be more thoughtful. They can’t just be a copy and paste of something that we saw somewhere. I think we need to have so much more community participation.
I think a lot of times in Australia, we get an architect involved, they do a design, they put two designs up for consultation and say what do you like, a or b and then that’s it. That’s not really getting the community to be part of the process and I think that’s what we found through corona as well – I’ve never seen so many people on the streets. So many people are actually talking about open spaces, what they would love to have, how they would love to engage with that space even if we come back to normal. These are the things if we get the people power behind it, these are the things that we can really make a difference and create these assets that are really important for all of us.
So I’ve found that in the last 10 or 15 years we’ve lost the ability to share – no one wants to share. In developing countries people share their solar panels, here everybody wants everything for themselves so they can have control over it. But I think Corona has shown how important it is that we engage with our communities and really create these spaces where we feel safe and included.
Angela: Connecting in person is so important. That’s one of the positive things about lockdown. I met people in my neighbourhood who I never knew and it was quite nice.
Tobias: Absolutely. And one more thing is that this whole mindset of housing here in Australia is another thing. I think sometimes people buy a house as an investment. So for me for example – and from my German upbringing – I built this house, I will die in this house, and hopefully my kids will stay in this house and hopefully their kids. That’s how I see it. A lot of people think it’s harder for them to connect with the neighbourhood. You know, they’ll stay for three or five years and then make a bit of money and move to the next suburb or suburb and finally move to the beach house and just go surfing every day but then to get this investment of community and again I think this is where the lockdown helped – we really relied on each other. We couldn’t get our mates from 50km away to hang out on the weekend so where do we get our social connectivity? So even though it was hard and it’s terrible it did offer some good things as well around how we live and what is important for us.
Angela: Absolutely. Thank you. So that also leans on the effect that the sharing economy is commonly linked to less waste. As you mentioned, you build a quality house that is designed for longevity whether for you or someone else. So can we talk about the benefit of shared spaces from an environmental perspective?
Tobias: Absolutely. For example, from our house we had zero waste. So 90% of the waste created was recycled in that space and if you stay longer that’s when you save a lot of this waste. The other thing is with public spaces and shared places the more engagement we get the more respectful the residents are to that open space and the less maintenance we have, the less waste we have. I think if we spent more time designing and building the right elements as well for longevity. I think also looking at the sustainable lifestyle as well. Yes, we are living in a bit of a throw-away society when we put things in and say in five years we’re replacing it. That’s terrible. We should be actually be putting things in place that can take 50 to 100 years. That’s what we see in Europe and that’s what builds the character of a space and we’re not renewing it in 15 years. “Oh look there is a new thing,” no, the old has so much beauty in it and so much history and so much stories in it. We should be encouraged to utilise it more than renewing.
I think there are so many amazing things in Australia now where recycled materials are getting used in the built environment as well from furniture, from all different things as well. For example, how we can get our drainage done with recycled concrete as well. All these we need to consider early. But I think that’s the thing as well from a sustainability point of view, the most sustainable outcomes only come if we do the planning right and a lot of the times it’s rushed. So if we don’t have the time or the right planning or the right resources allocated to it that’s when the design is fragmented and a lot of time just finished for the ribbon-cutting thing – great, we made it in the timeframe but if you look at a 25 year time cycle analysis, “Could we have done it better?” Ninety nine percent we could have saved so much waste, water, all of these coming together.
Angela: Absolutely. So, for someone who lives in an urban area – perhaps in an apartment – could you explain the importance of biophilia and how they can adapt a small space for themselves.
Tobias: Absolutely. There’s some fantastic examples from permaculture like what you can do with your balcony. Biophila to actually green your balcony or your facade or just indoor plants – there’s so many indoor plants that help for one, visually, they really give you this feeling of being engaged with nature. So there’s a lot of mental effects on that as well. But then it also helps with the massive decline of natirve bees or insects really – again to create little bio areas to connect little native bees to cross-pollinate which then spreads through the neighbourhood. Simple things like that can help mentally but also help the environment.
There are some amazing examples or permaculture principles on how you can grow three or four things in a one metre square area. So you actually have your corn but then have your beans growing on the corn so they cross-pollinate each other. So it’s really about experimenting with it as well and getting your hands dirty.
There is another amazing health benefit with being in the soil with your hands and smelling the soil and all of these things. There’s huge movement now on earth matting so sitting in the office and having an earth mat where we just have bare feet on. There is so much research on that that it’s actually mentally beneficial as well so you’re more productive. So I think if we all look at that and everyone would just put five plants more on their balconies and five plants more on their backyard we would have already a massive impact on helping the environment and on our planet and how we actually get rid of CO2 and get better oxygen in our neighbourhood and getting more birdlife better.
So I think the more – especially in these hardcore urban areas – the more greenery, the more animals are really important for that as well because the young generation will only look after the environment if they experience it. It’s the same as the politicians. All the politicians should be going through the rainforest then everybody would ensure it doesn’t get destroyed but if you never experience it you don’t even know what to fight for. Yes we need jobs and we need money but no look, if you really engage with that and saw the animals you would do anything to protect it.
Angela: You really describe places in such a beautiful way that you just want to transport yourself there. Now I live in an inner area as well and I take my kids out every day to engage in nature and I have spaces near me that have the biodiversity and the birds you talk about and it’s so important. I wouldn’t mind living near a rainforest though.
Tobias: That’s nice. That’s what I do with my kids on Saturdays, I go on a sensory walk. It’s funny I do the same walk every time. And every time they find something new, they find a new smell, or a new leaf and I think that’s the beauty of this as well. We don’t have to always re-do things. There’s so many more things that we would discover if we really set our minds to it.
I think these days we’re all running around with our phones and we have to be 24/7 available and we don’t really experience what we have. So you tell the kids, hey, for the next seven minutes we just focus on hearing and it’s hard it’s so hard to just focus on this one and just trying to get everything in and having this show and share. “So what did you hear?” So how they explain something suddenly you think, wow, I didn’t hear that at all so it’s just a beautiful conversation as well.
Angela: For sure. And how is Australia tracking with creating shared spaces and even with ideas like 7 Senses.
Tobias: I think they are and I’ve seen councils investing in strategic thinking which I think is fantastic. For example, pocket parks – I’m sure you see this in your neighborhood – we have a policy here that within 500 metres we have all these little pocket parks, so it has a swing, a bobble rider and maybe a thing with a slide on it. So again, this is your human corridors but you’re better off having these little pocket parks be more nature inspired so you just listen to the birds and then meander further and then have proper destinations where you actually have an intergenerational park where you can spend the whole day. It’s also changing and you can celebrate the different seasons. You know I live in Queensland and people say, “Oh, there’s no seasons here,” but we have seasons here. We can work with different experiences. When you come at 3’oclock it’s different to when you come in the morning because the shadow lines are different so I think Australia is really investing into that.
So a lot of councils are going back to that and thinking before I spend and create like for like let’s actually take a step back and do a proper assessment and say, “How can we really change that?” I have to say in regards to neighbourhood planning and new communities I still see a lot of very bad examples, it’s still more about how I can make the most money out of this block of land. So, the cutting of the land doesn’t make sense, nobody looks at the right aspect. At the end of the day in the housing estates it’s all about how your block is actually cut and how you can build a proper sustainable home. So if we don’t care about that, because this house will perform anywhere with aircon and heating so just plan whatever – so I think that will be the biggest impact we could make if the building industry or the development industry would change their perspective that would be fantastic so I think less is more.
But I think overall Australia is amazing, we have some amazing opportunities here. We just have to be a little bit more risky because we always love to follow and never want to be the leader in a few things. I think, this is the time, we could lead, we could be the experts in solar and we go overseas and a lot of these people from Australia are overseas testing and come back and say, “Oh, we can prove that it works”. Let’s be the leader, let’s test it here. So that’s why we’re hoping now with 7 Senses as well to get some support, we’re having some great conversations with councils to lead the way and do a lot more testing and not just testing but implementing that in full communities, nott just little parks but how we improve the lives of everyone in there.
Angela: Tobias, thank you so much. You’ve offered us so many inspiring ideas today with sharing and bringing nature back into our cities. So how can I and the listeners get involved and support you in your work?
Tobias: Well, we are actually just launching a new community – a new 7 Senses community which should be open next week. It’s a free online membership, we want to be at the 7 Senses the knowledge heart for all Australians but hopefully all over the world as well so to actually get sensory engagement. So on this online community there will be an expert platform – sowe will have once a month international speakers talking about the importance of 7 Senses then we will actually have blocks from people from a sensory component. So again, it would be great if the listeners sign up to be part of our online community, getting engaged so there will be activities they can do, kits to help them to go to their local council as well so they can say, “Hey, I really want to have this change in my neighbourhood. These are some steps that we want to do so they can engage us to help them along the way or they can just do it themselves and take ownership to spread that message themselves.’
Angela: Excellent, thank you. So let’s start tomorrow with a sensory walk and maybe take someone new along with us.
Tobias: Absolutely. And some people don’t smell that and some people don’t hear that and some people can’t see that – so it’s a beautiful thing as well to see something through the eyes of somebody else. That’s what I love with kids isn’t it? They see the world so differently and so many beautiful ways as well where they’re suddenly experiencing it saying, “Wow, I passed this 200,000 times and never picked up on it”. So just beautiful connecting between us humans as well.
Angela: Yes, that’s a lovely reminder. So, Tobias thank you so much for being here on PROTECT. It was an absolute pleasure to speak to you and here’s to another 7 years of 7 Senses and I’ll put everything we spoke about in the show notes for the listeners.
Tobias: Thank you so much for the opportunity, I appreciate it.
Angela: Thank you.